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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
434
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
jonnykefka wrote:scimichar wrote:Quote:No system names below 0.5 are shown in the production part :) Not having a name for systems below 0.5 because they don't make much not really something to be smiling about. There should be large circles in low/null. Not an issue of size, but of security. "Oh, there's a big production ball in this particular system in Derilek! Gee, wonder what the Goons are up to there!" kind of thing. I suspect some WH industrialists would similarly not be pleased with having their J-sig outed. But yes, the dominance of hisec production is mildly depressing.
I don't get why people always harp on this.
It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.
Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?
How about the middle of the Arctic?
No, of course not. For MANY different reasons. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
435
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Maybe if highsec didn't have a thousand manufacturing slots in each of the 10 stations in every system that cost pocket change to run, nullsec might not be populated only by the desperate industrialists or those in the supercapital and import/export business.
In another thread we debunked this hard.
Basically, if all of nullsec was populated with manufacturing stations, it would have something like 10x the production capacity of highsec.
It's a case of people complaining that they haven't utilized the sandbox or do not want to.
The tools exist to do exactly what you say -- people just don't use them because nobody likes to build cars in Somalia or the Arctic.
It's really not all that complicated. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
437
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Posted - 2014.02.06 21:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.
Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory? This much production only happens in hi sec because you can have the goods from Jita into the hands of your capsuleer minions in one or two jumps. Imagine if we didn't have massive container ships and bulk haulers capable of crossing oceans in days, would there be more economic pressure to put factories closer to the place of consumption?
You're talking about the trade hub aspect. Yes. That is one of the MANY reasons.
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Why not?
Because as a car producer it's your job to make cars cheaply and sell them. If you live in the arctic that's going to be hard and you're going to be disadvantaged no matter how you slice it.
Destination SkillQueue wrote:It would makes sense from a game balance perspective and common sense perspective. .
I have balance concerns as well. For instance, why are so many diamonds in Africa? Why can't the diamond mind be right here, right next to my house?
And why does it cost so much money to ship raw materials and capital to the Arctic? It should be free. Then my Arctic Car Production Facility would be more feasible.
Why don't more people live there? Particularly unemployed ones who want to do factory work. Fix please.
There might also be a balance problem with shipping the cars from the Arctic because I might not have enough people to sell cars to way out here. Hrm. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
440
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Posted - 2014.02.07 13:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?
How about the middle of the Arctic?
No, of course not. For MANY different reasons.
Are any of those things games?
The act of participating in an economy is widely considered to be a game. See: game theory.
Batolemaeus wrote:The lack of slots to sustain even a medium sized alliance is an issue
Why do people keep repeating this myth? It's 100% untrue.
The differential between highsec and nullsec has nothing to do with slot availability. :
Pinky Hops wrote:Basically, if all of nullsec was populated with manufacturing stations, it would have something like 10x the production capacity of highsec. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
440
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Posted - 2014.02.07 14:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:In 10 years of EVE online despite wars killing missions of space ships, furious building activity (hundreds of expensive stations) null sec only has something like 3% of high sec's industrial capacity. Trillions of isk and millions of actual human man hours spent on 3% of the Industrial capacity high sec gets FOR FREE.
And your solution to this screwed up situation is quadrillions more isk and hundreds of millions more man hours to have more industrial capacity than you types get FOR FREE?
Yup.
There's a lot of land in the Arctic. You could fill it with many car factories if you wanted, but it's still not a wise idea to do it in general, which is why it isn't done.
This isn't rocket science.
Moving production into nullsec wouldn't make the game better -- it would just make industry something you need to be in a giant coalition to do properly, which would SUCK for the game.
PvP in nullsec? Heck yes -- sign me up.
Industry in nullsec? Hell no. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
441
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Posted - 2014.02.07 15:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:We're talking about EVE online, Not Pinky Hops personal preferences online.
Believe it or not, game theory/economic theory works in general, regardless of context. Meaning, it doesn't matter if we are talking about "just a video game" or "real life" or some theoretical construct.
The same basic principles apply to all.
Jenn aSide wrote:Null (or any) players wanting to and being able to live in null (or any) space rather than being shackled to "the npc core worlds" so to speak would be a better thing for the game in general.
No part of space is currently capable of supplying every resource. This is by design, and I don't think that will ever change.
CCP literally rigged it that way. You can't live in a wormhole without importing goods because not everything spawns there. The same is true for nullsec, lowsec, and even highsec.
The reason most goods are available on the market in highsec is because people spend the time to import them. Why? Because it's a convenient trade hub - and that will never change.
People don't bother trying to create true trade hubs in nullsec because it's crappy for everybody involved. Look at how much damage was done in Jita - and that was highsec. There will never be a "nullsec Jita" because people aren't going to want to take the risk just to buy and sell their goods.
Jenn aSide wrote:Because having things (like null factories) to win or lose, to fight over or destroy yourself to keep your enemy from getting them is a better game play experience than "gee, lets build stuff in safety , stuff it into a jump freighter, make 2 jumps and log off from boredom".
You're basically saying people should sacrifice productivity in order to have fun. People do this anyways - but nobody will ever cede it as a requirement....Probably because for some people, high productivity IS fun.
Not everybody has the same view of "fun" as you do. Being forced into a giant coalition so I can manufacture in nullsec does not sound like "fun" to me. I don't want to be in a giant nullsec coalition...And these days, if you aren't in a giant coalition, your only other options are NPC null or wormholes. Both of which I'm fairly certain will always be horrific for general industry. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
441
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 16:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Batolemaeus wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
The differential between highsec and nullsec has nothing to do with slot availability. :
Your reading comprehension is as terrible as your posting.
You didn't read properly. Your post is terrible.
There, I contributed as much as you. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
460
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Posted - 2014.02.10 01:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'd like to point out that for bulk research, relying on highsec station slots is not practical. You need lab slots on demand. Period. People in it for the long haul are absolutely going to setup a PoS, even in highsec if that is where they live.
Public manufacturing slots exist so that new players or people new to industry can get into T1 manufacturing without huge initial investment either in time or resources. The lab slots are similar but far more restricting -- you can "try out" industry or do super long research jobs semi-efficiently if you are willing to wait for slots. That's about it.
You can't be all that efficient with T2 manufacture while sitting around waiting in line for lab slots. And if you need to research blueprints regularly it's the same deal.
There's tons of open slots in lowsec/nullsec as well, and if anything the lower security you go, the less likely it is that you need a PoS.
As far as I know, it's the players themselves who set the prices for running slots in sov stations. So if the prices are high, blame your alliance/corp/coalition/whatever. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
460
|
Posted - 2014.02.10 13:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:1) a person who wants to build ships or mine is forced into highsec npc stations because those stations make everything else unviable
This is not true. For certain items, it's more efficient to use PoS slots than station slots as they have a faster time multiplier. Eg, depending on what you are making, you can make more isk per hour using PoS slots than station slots - yes, even after subtracting fuel costs.
Benny Ohu wrote:2 there's only one degree of success for producers - a highsec station. there's no point trying to advance from that or challenge yourself
Not true. See above. Also highsec stations are completely insufficient for lab slots due to crowding issues.
Benny Ohu wrote:3) there's really no point in working together
You could use the same argument for ratting or many income sources. For instance: why make friends and rat in groups when you can just multibox and keep it all for yourself?
But there are very tangible benefits to working together - namely that you get more time zone coverage and more efficient use of your lab slots that are inevitable on a PoS and NOT a station 
A lot of jobs run on weird schedules, requiring you to be awake at nearly all timezones if you want to do it all by yourself while having no downtime....
Benny Ohu wrote:4) outposts and starbases cannot be improved beyond highsec npc stations without breaking the game
Not sure what this has to do with anything, considering even the ones that are heavily upgraded are not used much -- which brings me back to my original point.
If slots were the constraint, you would not see free/unused slots literally everywhere in low/null. A lack of slots is not why people don't manufacture in null. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
460
|
Posted - 2014.02.10 14:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:So, why doesn't any of what you say actually happen?
I have no idea what you are referencing specifically with this statement.
Jenn aSide wrote:I mean, if it's all that simple, null sec should be chocked full of production, right?
If it were as simple as slot availability, then yes. Null would be chock full of production.
However, as I explained multiple times earlier in the thread, a lack of slots are not why people don't manufacture in null. I guess you didn't read the "stuff" I posted.
Jenn aSide wrote:People follow the path of least resistance. That path is almost always high sec. and as long as it's so easy to do in high sec and so easy to move stuff around, it will always be like that.
See, this is where people get fuzzy.
The ability to use jump freighters is a distinct advantage over highsec. Why does it remain that it's "easier" to move goods in highsec?
It turns out it's just because the trade hubs are in highsec.
So until you can find some magical wand to wave that moves a trade hub into nullsec, it's always going to be like this.
Jenn aSide wrote:It's bad though, it makes the game "small" and centralized and snuffs out a lot of the game play that you'd get by having the game be about "multiple localities".
There are multiple localities. Most of the trade localities are in highsec, but there are still scattered staging posts and communities where heavy import traffic from highsec comes, leading to more localities.
I don't see it anywhere near as extreme as you make it out to be. You act like there's only one place to trade and that being Jita. Not true.
Ironically, if you nerfed hauling in general (freighters, jump freighters, and perhaps titans as well) you might see more localities in null.
People import so much to null because JF fuel isn't really all that expensive compared to the time/effort involved in manufacturing. It basically makes importing the only option because given the choice of making it completely from scratch or just importing....People will import. It's the path of least resistance
If you want to see a lot of production in null then you'd have to nerf importation. It's that simple. |
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